God Wants to Heal the Parts of You That Still Hurt: How He Brings Wholeness to Your Mind, Body, and Spirit with Pastor Ike Miller

Hello, friends, and welcome back to Faithful Living.

Today we're going to talk about our God who heals.

I have a great guest interview for you, and we're talking about his book, Theology that Heals.

It is a powerful book and I think it's going to open your eyes to God as healer and that he tells us and promises in the Bible that he wants to heal us mind, body, and spirit.

And so this is a powerful conversation and I want to share it with you now.

Welcome to Faith Filled Living, the podcast for women who want to find joy again, grow closer to God, and rediscover the woman he created you to be.

I'm your host, Kristin.

Finish.

Each week you'll find encouragement, honest conversations, biblical perspective, and practical tools to help you experience more joy, purpose, and peace in everyday life.

Because the woman God created you to be is still there.

And it's never too late to come alive to the life he created you to live.

Hi.

Today on the podcast, I would like to welcome our guest, Pastor Ike Miller.

He is co pastor with his wife at Bright City Church in Durham, N.C. and he's just released his newest book called the Theology that Heals.

And I can't wait to talk to him about this book and just his heart for service and also just what can he share with us with what he's walked through himself and just what he's learned by talking and working with and encouraging so many people in their walk in life and faith.

So, Ike, welcome to the show.

Kristin, thanks so much for having me.

I have been looking forward to this conversation.

I love how conversational your podcast is, and so I'm excited to dig in.

Yeah.

Thank you.

So I think one of the first things that comes to me about, you know, the theme of your book, Theology that Heals, is that while I've had more conversations about healing in the last year or two, it's still, they're still limited.

And I find that in a lot of circles when I'm talking to people, it's still missing from a lot of conversations.

When we're talking about Christian Christians or Christianity or church, you know, we.

We hear about the gospel and salvation and so what would you just share with us about how did this even come to be?

That you realize this is something that we need to talk about more and we actually need to practice living out.

That's a great, that's a great just acknowledgement of kind of how these conversations are tricky within the Christian world of like, okay, if we talk about things like therapy, being healing, does that take away from God healing us some way or those in conflict?

And so just through my own journey, and I've shared some about that in the book, but through my own journey, I really wanted to help resolve some of that tension that we feel as Christians to be able to say, I want us to understand that all healing, whether that is emotional healing, mental health, all kinds of relational healing, is all a part of God's bigger heart to see us healed.

And that God, from beginning of scripture to the end, is in the work of healing.

And that's going to take different forms.

It's going to look different for each of us.

And.

But that means that any healing that we experience through therapy, that's a part of God's desire, is ultimately working towards that healing.

And so I kind of wanted to help resolve some of the, the difficulties around that conversation by saying we serve a God who loves to see healing happen.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, you know, there's so much scripture in the Bible that specifically says that.

Right.

He says, heal you, your, Your whole, maybe not that word, but whole self.

He wants to heal us completely in an every way.

That's his design.

Right.

That's his desire for us.

Yeah.

You know, and that's with.

Even as we think about kind of salvation, I, I wanted to kind of get right to the core of it because we have lots of theories of atonement, how Jesus saves us.

But I love how even in the word salvation, we have that word salve, like, I think salve.

And, you know, even for like a more kind of traditional way of thinking about salvation, I mean, you've got Isaiah 53, 5 that says, by his wounds we are healed.

And so even in those very, like, common phrases that we are used to saying around salvation, that notion of healing is there.

So you're exactly right.

It is all over Scripture.

So I think, you know, one of the things that I think about when I'm talking about, you know, people wanting to share with people that you can be healed.

And yes, you know, I know you're, you'll dig into this, but we don't mean it's always miraculous or instantaneous.

You can be healed by doing the work both in your, you know, through the Holy Spirit, but also through the actual actions and, you know, getting, digging into what's going on with us.

But it just seems like so many people are struggling these days.

Right.

It could be, it could be trauma.

It could be when something they don't even realize is affecting them.

It could be some, something they're holding on to that, someone said over them, it could be betrayal, it could be loneliness and isolation, because then that's bringing forth shame or not.

So what would you share this about?

Like, the state of things can seem a bit bleak.

And how do we get from maybe feeling one of those things, whether about ourselves or we're in a relationship or there's something going on with us, how do we go from there to start realizing that there's hope in healing in our lives?

Yeah.

You know, I think a part of that is one of the misconceptions I wanted to speak to is the ways that we think about when God heals us.

We tend to think that happens immediately, instantaneously.

That I come to follow Jesus or believe in Jesus and I'm healed, or I pray for it and I'm healed.

And sometimes that happens.

But the reality is it's often much more of a journey, and it's a process.

And I think we end up disillusioned when we are led to believe it should happen immediately.

And when it doesn't, God doesn't care, or God's not paying attention, or he doesn't see my pain.

And I think God is aware of just how deep some of our wounds go.

And so what I mean by that is I think there are things that we find in our lives that are painful.

Whether it's a current relationship dynamic that is painful, or something we experienced that was said about us, or something we believe about ourselves.

And as much as we want that to be healed immediately, the truth is that probably goes down to something deeper that God ultimately wants to heal the deeper thing.

Because until he heals that, we're going to keep.

Every time we hear that word used about us or every time we feel that same relationship dynamic, and it's going to hurt all over again.

I'll give you a good example of this from my own life.

I grew up in a context with a father who struggled with alcoholism.

And as an adult, I began to realize that as a.

Whether it was as a pastor or just any room I walked in, I was constantly trying to assess, okay, how's everybody doing in this room?

How's everybody feeling?

Are people happy with me?

Are they upset with me?

If they're upset with me, what do I need to do to fix it?

Because it's clearly, I did it.

I must have made them upset, you know, And I reached a point where I just got burned out on that.

And it took me reaching that point to be able to say, okay, what is going on?

And As I began to dig layers down to understand what was going on, I ultimately understood that was rooted in my childhood where so much of my safety, my sense of security, my sense of peace depended on, you know, how was my dad doing, Was he upset, was he angry, was he happy?

And what do I need to do to manage kind of his feelings.

And until I understood that, I wasn't going to understand why I felt that when I walked into every room today.

And so God, even though he didn't heal me of that instantaneously, he allowed me to go on that journey so that I could understand on a bigger picture what was going on and ultimately experience longer term healing.

So I think just knowing it's a journey is really important.

Yeah.

And you know, one of the things that's become very clear to me over, you know, the years is that what we push down, we ignore, we avoid, we don't give it a voice to the thing.

It could be a diagnosis, it could be a feeling, an emotion, it could be a trauma, a wound.

But when we do that, it will eventually surface.

But the longer we allow it to fester.

That's right.

The more pain we're going to keep having.

That repeated cycle of pain or of feeling shame or guilt or feeling like, why do I keep finding myself here?

Here?

Yeah.

One of the things I like to say is that feelings don't die just because we bury them.

They just go underground and they start working in ways that we're not aware of because they're underground.

And so you're right, they end up working in ways we're not even aware of, hurting things we didn't know.

And then we are kind of like, how did this happen?

And so.

You're exactly right.

We gotta bring those to the surface.

Yeah.

And this is a little off topic from your book.

I mean, your book's talking.

Let's go to this.

There's a.

There's a couple really good books, but one's called When.

I think it's called when the Body says no, but it's by a doctor, I don't know if you've read that one, but he's basically explaining how when we end up with a chronic illness, cancer, whatever, it might be that when they've studied people, they often have similar.

I don't know if he calls them personality traits or patterns in their behavior.

But it's.

It's really what it is is it's unspoken feelings, needs, emotions that we keep putting down or avoiding to our detriment.

In other words, what I mean is just like what we just said is things will keep repeating themselves until we deal with it or until we realize, why do I keep not having a voice?

Like, why do I keep letting you know?

And it might be my thing, my doing, but it's like if we keep doing that, it actually hurts us mentally, physically, and spiritually.

And I think most of us didn't grow up learning these things.

Right?

I mean, this isn't something I knew and most of us knew about.

I think it's new information.

And so.

But to know that now, it's like, gosh, you know, and I know you share and we can talk about an hour later.

Kind of like a process that you walk through of how do we start unearthing?

Maybe whatever keeps coming up for us or that we're holding on to.

You know, it could be bitterness, it could be anything, but that's keeping us stuck and not.

Not letting us wholly heal.

Yeah, you know, it's.

It's one of those things where I think a lot of us are like, where do I begin to do this work?

How do I get to the thing that's way below the surface?

And really what I've realized is the best thing is to begin with what you can see or feel.

Just begin with the surface stuff.

It's kind of like when there's a weed that you want to get up out of your garden.

You know, the more you break it off at the tip, that's not going to deal with what's deep down, but you've got to start there.

And so kind of getting it by the root.

And so the way that I think about it is beginning with whatever's on the surface and then begin to ask questions, go deeper down.

This actually started in a Toyota car factory.

It's kind of a funny story.

They needed a method to figure out what were the root of the problems they were dealing with.

And so on their factory floor, let's say, for example, they were always delayed getting windshields in.

Well, what they would do is they go to the person who's putting in the windshields and they say, hey, what's holding you up on the windshields?

And you say, well, the guy that's.

That's preparing the windshields is held up.

So they go to him and say, what's going on?

And he'd say, well, the people delivering the windshields are on hold up.

So they'd go to them and they'd say, what's the holdup?

And they'd say, well, the people who manufacture the windshields are held up.

So they go to them and they'd say, what's the holdup?

And they'd say, well, there is a limited amount of resources and that's what's holding it up.

And so it's saying kind of basically by the time they get to that fourth or fifth why they've answered their original question.

And the real issue is there's a limited resources.

But our temptation is, let's just replace the guy on the line.

You know, just somebody will work faster, and they can do that all day long and it's not going to fix it.

And we've got to do something similar on our interior lives where we say, you know, why did that comment bother me?

Well, it bothered me because I felt like they didn't understand me.

Well, why is it painful that they didn't understand me?

Well, because I feel like I don't get fully seen by somebody.

Well, why does it bother me that I don't feel fully seen?

Well, because in some way, if I don't feel fully seen, then I feel like they're gonna blame me for things that, that aren't true.

And, and you get down and you say, okay, well, when else have I felt that way and might say, well, as a kid, I felt like I was falsely accused for all kinds of things.

Now you're getting to something that's like, okay, is that really what they were saying?

That I was being blamed for this?

No.

Okay, I can find some freedom for that.

And so it's kind of that journey of just kind of, we're asking, going deeper until you start hitting on some stuff that you're like, yeah, that.

That's tender.

Yeah.

You know, and I, I think one thing, I mean, yes, obviously people talk about.

Some people talk about journaling, other people say they hate it.

I mean, there's other ways to do a similar process.

Right.

You don't have to write it down.

Although I think it's a really good process.

But I think it's that a lot of us, we don't always take time to do self reflection or introspection on a regular basis.

Or if we're like, why do I keep getting really irritated with my coworker?

Right.

In other words, we forget that we're part of the equation.

That's right.

And what is it underneath the thing?

And so I think it's really important.

It's actually a really good practice.

To your point, whether it has to do with something that keeps coming up for you or that you're struggling through or you're feeling, or it could be for something else unrelated.

But it's just a good practice to kind of go down different levels.

And I know on your website you have a.

A worksheet people can print if they want to.

Kind of see the step by step for that as well, which, you know, is a good, good place to start if somebody's like, what.

What do I do here?

What do I do?

Well, you know, the funny thing about the.

How I started journaling was I just realized when I write it down, I don't go in circles as much.

Like, when it's in my head, I will go in circles and over and over, and I realize I never make a lot of progress.

And so writing it down allows me to kind of go deeper.

So, yeah, I think it's powerful.

Yeah.

Well, right.

And it probably interrupts the signal.

Right.

Just thinking it lets you.

It moves the.

The thought.

So.

Yeah.

So good.

So let me ask you this.

I guess one of the things that you talk about is, you know, that basically, you know, when God created us, Adam and Eve in the garden, you know, he had this perfect plan, and we.

It was all.

Everything was as it should be.

Us with God, us with each other, us with creation, you know, and us with ourselves.

But of course, sin entered the world.

And so this is where then we struggle in the world we live in because of brokenness.

And so how.

What.

What would you just share with us about why we might struggle with how we feel about ourselves or in our relationships, you know, or God and even just being disconnected from nature, you know, like creation.

Because I think a lot of people are also in that situation where they don't even notice a sunset or they don't get outside and think what a gorgeous world that's been created for us.

Yeah.

You know, I think some of it is.

And it connects to what I want to say holistically about the book, which is I think we have too simplistic an understanding of sin, but that also leads us to have a too simplistic notion of salvation, meaning, I think salvation is beautiful and there's so many dynamics to it.

But when we understand how expansive the effects of sin are, it also helps us to understand how beautiful the work that God is God has done.

So what I mean by that is I think we typically think of sin as just this desire to do the wrong thing that I just have this desire to do the wrong thing when in reality, sin, the best way to capture it is it's like the.

The foundation of Creation cracked.

I mean, this, the very, the bottom of kind of it all just cracked open.

And so it's not just about what we desire to do, or it's the fact that we as humans will die.

We.

We no longer have that of our own, like eternal living.

It is something that has to be through the gift of God.

And, and so I think for us to understand that that also plays out in our bodies, that that sickness is not just something we experience because God doesn't love us.

And one of the.

It's the, the outworking of the Fall that our bodies are broken and they're vulnerable to sickness, but our minds also, I think, understanding that, that the way that we think about ourselves has been affected by sin.

And we think about ourselves in broken ways and distorted ways, and we allow things that are said about us to sink in.

And so a big part of it is understanding that when we think about the Fall and we think about sin, that it's not just something that we feel guilty about, but it's also something that we have suffered under the effects of because we live in a broken world.

This is one of the things that I try to explain a lot of times is when it comes to us going to God, desiring salvation, yes, there's a place for repentance, but there's also even a place for acknowledging that some of us are broken because of sin that was done against us, that we were hurt by cause of somebody else's sin.

And it's important for us to recognize that and to make that distinction.

But that's kind of what I want to get at is understanding just how holistic the effects of sin are.

But also that helps us to understand and appreciate how holistic the work of salvation is.

Yeah, so true.

So true.

Yeah.

So one of the things you talk about is freedom, you know, related to sin.

But I liked one of the things you said, which was, it's not just like that.

We get to choose do we want.

And you talked about ice cream.

You can share that if you want.

But it's not just like, okay, are we making a, a better choice or a choice that we know is bad for us?

You say, but it's actually the freedom to choose what is in line with God's best for us.

So not just is this a sin?

No, ice cream is not eating.

I mean, it's not a sin, right?

Eating ice cream, it's that.

Sure.

Eating ice cream on occasion, great.

But if it becomes where, Right.

And maybe you want to share that story, but it's like, what could be the best that God wants for us?

And are we trying to align with that?

Yeah.

So kind of the, the story that I share is I think when it comes to freedom, a lot of us think of kind of going to a grocery store and going down the aisle with all of the cereal on it.

And they're like, look at all of these choices.

I have freedom to choose from any of them.

But the more biblical notion of freedom that I think of is more of the freedom to.

Freedom from sin, the freedom to choose God's way.

And the example that I give of that, the story I is how, especially in college and right after college, I, I had a real problem with ice cream.

I'll be honest.

Like, I just, man, I could not get a carton and only eat part of it.

It was just like if I found it, I was going to eat it until my stomach hurt and I would find all the chocolate I could have put in there.

Everything.

But one of the stories, and my wife loves to make fun of me for this story.

But I was realizing, okay, this is a problem.

The fact that I like can't stop eating this until my stomach hurts, I.

That's a problem.

And so the story is I go to the grocery store because I like really want some ice cream.

And I get to the grocery store, I'm standing in front of the ice cream cabinet with all the ice cream in it and I'm like, what am I going to choose?

What am I choose?

And then there's this part of me that's like, you know you're going to end up feeling kind of bad, you're not going to feel good after you do this.

And I just don't know if this is the right choice right now.

And so I ended up just turning around and walking out of the store.

And it's a funny story because you think about it, but the beauty in it was like there was a freedom that I had to choose what was best.

And I think for us to understand that the freedom that we receive from Christ is that freedom to choose his way, to be realigned with his best for us.

And that was what was broken in the fall is a big part of that was just Adam and Eve kind of falling into this place of self reliance of I can guarantee my own best outcome.

And the results of that was the fall into sin, the disobedience.

But what God was trying to do, even by giving his law, was helping us to see this is what my best for you is.

I want you to live in line with that.

Not because I'm looking to judge you when you don't, or guilt trip you when you don't, but because I want what's best for you.

And so we see that with the law, but it's really only when we are saved by Christ, his spirit lives in us, that, that, that reorientation, realignment with God's best for us really happens from the inside out.

That's what ultimately he wants for us.

Absolutely.

Well, yeah.

And so it's funny because I was going to ask you to talk about self reliance versus dependence on God, but what else can you just add to that?

Because I think a lot of us, it's some parts of life or in some part of our life struggle with that and not on purpose.

I think we do it not even realizing we're doing it because it just, it just happened to me.

I, you know, I have, I mean I have two podcasts, you know, I have, you know, several things that I'm doing, but I find myself sometimes feeling pressured.

Yeah, I'm like, oh, well, you know, you're, you could have this other income over here again, maybe you should.

And then I start getting that like, well, maybe I should.

And I'm not saying that that's wrong or bad, but what I'm saying though is it's coming from a place of thinking that that will be safer or that that I need to go out and do that.

And I'm not saying someone should not.

We all have to pay the bills.

So I'm not, I'm not saying someone should go get a job.

No.

But my point is instead of saying God's called me into doing what I'm doing?

Yes.

And am I being faithful if I say I'm going to go to dissociation because I don't trust or I'm afraid to fully trust him, that all the provision will come even though we're good at this point.

Right.

So do you see what I'm saying?

Like, so what would you just speak to us?

Because I think a lot of us find ourselves, and maybe that wasn't even a good example, but find ourselves with is this, is this me wanting to be self reliant completely and not.

You know what I mean?

Or is it, is it being afraid to be fully dependent and trusting God for what he says, he, he will provide for us.

Yeah.

You know, we're, we're doing a series right now on the wilderness and I think we all, when we look at the Israelites in the wilderness and how they, you know, they.

God saves them in this miraculous way, parting the Red Sea.

They get out in the wilderness and there's no food.

And suddenly they're like, why did you bring us out here?

Take us back to Egypt?

It was better in Egypt.

And we.

We watch this happen over and over again.

We're like, come on, you guys, like, get it together.

And yet I think that's a pattern that plays out in our lives over and over again where we.

We lose sight of the ways God's been faithful in the past.

We get focused on what's the problem right in this moment.

And we end up saying, it's better for me to go back to Egypt.

I'd rather be bound to slavery, Job that I hate, than be right where I am, you know, whatever it is.

And that whole journey of them going through the.

Through the wilderness, even Israel, I don't think fully got this.

The goal was not the promised land.

The goal, learning to live in dependence on God.

And so for us to understand in our seasons of wilderness, there.

There's even something God's doing in us, which is to say, I want you to understand it is better to be in the wilderness and depend on my presence than to be in a promised land and think, this is all about what you can do for yourself.

Because we see Israel gets to the promised land they make there, and within just a few generations, it's right back to everybody was doing what was right in their own eyes.

Right.

And so I think for us to understand so much of what God wants us to do is ultimately just live in the freedom of utter dependence on him.

Yeah.

So good.

You know, and so that's one thing that you sort of said the word, but one thing I.

The pattern I see with.

With all of us or, you know, a lot of us, is we somehow our problem, our pain, our diagnosis, our trauma, whatever it might be, becomes bigger than God.

Meaning that, for instance, not minimizing at all if someone has a new health diagnosis or one that they've had for a long time, but sometimes we can be consumed by the identity of the thing instead of the identity of who God is and what he can do.

And so I think sometimes that that also can keep us from what he wants for us, which is eventually to be healed in some way.

And that may not be in our lifetime.

We don't know that.

But yeah, and that's.

I think it's.

It's that sort of symptom of we are consumed by whatever has sort of the strongest grip on Us.

Yeah.

You know, I think about again, kind of thinking about Moses.

He's just kind of on mine right now.

But one of the things that my wife actually talks about a lot is how, you know, when God came to Moses and said, moses, I want you to go and talk to Pharaoh and tell him to set my people free.

Moses more so than like the God who's talking to him in the burning bush.

He's preoccupied with, you know, I can't talk good.

You know, I don't have, I can't talk well.

And instead of God saying, look, I'll, I'll fix that for you.

You're fine, you're going to be good.

Like, you're not that bad of a talker.

God's like, did you forget who I was?

Did you forget that I was the one who made your mouth?

I'll, you know.

And so I think you're right.

Like, I think that the fear of certain things grows or out sizes the size of God who actually has the ultimate control.

And so I think you're so right.

I think we've got to keep that in mind.

And God sometimes will take us through hard seasons to help us remember that, to learn that, to see that again.

And that's painful, but again, I think is a part of ultimately God wants our alignment with his best for us, which is living in utter dependence on him.

Yeah.

So, you know, and yes, and I think to, to that point, and I think one of the things you say is he wants us to be in his presence, but it's, it's every moment.

In other words, we don't just mean like, oh, like for instance, I think you give an example in the book.

It's not so much about the presence, but it is a little bit.

It.

You're talking about an author, I think a pastor Peter, because Zeza or somebody, I said it wrong.

But, but he basically, you know, one day his wife's like, I'm done.

Like, he know, he's like very a theologian, all these things.

But the point is, is he, he kept repeating cycles, right.

Of like in certain areas of his life there was these things going on.

But I guess my point is, is we can do all the things and check all the boxes, right.

Read our Bible, go to church.

But it's.

Are we getting in the presence of God on a continuous basis?

Right.

And then the dependence on God.

And I think sometimes we can get, we can check the things like, oh, I, but I did all the things.

And yet we don't make space for God.

In our, in our day.

Yeah.

You know, that was kind of one of the things that I noticed or I mentioned too with the, the story of the prodigal son.

You've got the younger brother that we all know about, but you've also got the older brother.

And the older brother is kind of like, but I've checked all the boxes, I've done all these things.

I've always done exactly what you wanted.

And, and one of the things I talk about in the book is, is how both of these sons were far from the heart of the father.

One was location wise, closer, but both were far from the heart of the father.

Younger brother was far from the heart of the father because he thought that his father was an obstacle to what he wanted.

The younger or the older brother was far from the heart of God or his father because he thought his father was a means to the things that he wanted.

And I think a lot of times we do these kind of things, religious things that we're supposed to do, like pray and read our Bible, not because it, it creates intimacy with God, but because it's what puts God in our debt.

God, I did these things, therefore you have to do X, Y or Z.

And all along God's like, it's about presence, it's about communion with me.

And so, yeah, but, so what I talk about too, there is the ways in which I wanted to be able to do my quiet time, for example, and go away from that.

And whatever sense of satisfaction and good feeling I got in doing that, I could just take it with me and go back to my day to day life things.

And I realized over time I was like, well, I would have that.

And then I go back to my normal things and it's like, I don't have that anymore.

I think it's the psalm where it says, in my presence you will be satisfied.

And I just remembered I want his satisfaction apart from his presence.

And he doesn't give that this is all about his presence.

And so that's, that's kind of what I get out there.

Yeah, no, I love that I, I've talked about this on the podcast many times, but I, you know, of course in the Bible it tells us, you know, to pray and give thanks.

But like I, one of the things, you know, have gratitude, but I have a, I just call it a micro gratitude practice.

But in a lot of people do this, but I just say it that it's basically all day long I'm just having an internal dialogue Right.

With God.

Like, Lord, how did you come up with this amazing herb?

Like, this tastes so good.

Right.

It's just a constant.

But it keeps me in that mindset.

Right.

Keeps me in the thought.

It keeps me, you know, having that open communication, if you will.

But I can tell you the days where I do certain things and I keep myself there versus somehow I miss the morning and I didn't do 100%.

My day goes different.

Yeah.

I am a different person.

I mean, in small ways, but, like, if.

If things were to get, like, a little more like, my kids come home and they're, you know, they are, you know, 19 plus, so you never know again.

But the point is, is sometimes if they're a little, like, snippy, if I'm not in that kind of place, Right.

Where I'm more connected to God, then I might, after a certain period, get a little irritated with them.

Right.

So I definitely notice a difference when I'm in the presence of God.

Yeah.

I think that's the part where understanding that it's not about the particular behavior of reading our Bible or praying, it's ultimately about the transformation that's happening internally.

And that's what Pete Scazzero was talking about that you mentioned earlier was that the ultimate goal is not that we are just good, consistent readers of our Bibles, although that is really important.

The goal is that we are transformed into the kind of human that Jesus was.

And that's what sanctification is, that process of us being kind of healed into the kind of human that Jesus was.

And so then Scripture isn't just about checking a box.

It's about understanding how did Jesus deal with anger and when he was falsely accused and.

And what's going on in me that makes it so difficult to not respond that way.

And.

And so that.

That work of.

Whereas, unfortunately, you know, in that I wrestle with this all the time as a pastor, but so much of how we measure someone's spiritual maturity is what they do, their practices, their.

Their, you know, how many times did they show up to church?

And all of those things are important, but not because we, you know, keep track of those things, so God's happy with us, but because all of those things contribute to our transformation.

Yeah.

So.

So true.

So one of the things I wanted to ask you about is, I guess from the.

The.

Especially at the beginning of your book, one of the things that I think kind of was obvious is there's definitely churches and Christians and probably even pastors that struggle with maybe showing up with the compassion and the empathy and the grace for people that have been hurt, that.

That are still trying to navigate that path, that journey.

And what would you just share with us about how can we be as a Christian, you know, in our neighborhoods, in our homes and our communities, our churches?

Like, how can we show up when, you know, so that we're not coming up judgmental or like, oh, get over it, or, you know, where we're showing up in having that compassion for people, no matter where they're at, no matter what they've walked through.

Yeah.

You know, one of the.

One of the situations that I think that brings that to the surface most, whether it's for me as a pastor or for Christians talking with friends or neighbors, is whenever someone has been through something extremely painful and they.

They come to me and they, you know, are kind of like, why did this happen?

And, you know, why X, Y or Z.

And I think my anxiety as a pastor, my instinct, my desire is I want to tell you, I want to give you a.

The reason why this happened.

And we think that's what is being asked for.

And sometimes it is.

But more what we're doing when we want to give that perfect answer is we're resolving our own anxiety of like, well, if I can't answer this, is my whole faith broken?

Or do I not, you know, trust God enough?

And instead, I think what we've got to be able to do is say, you know, in this moment, even more than a quick answer and a tidy system that explains all of this, is just being able to sit with them in the midst of that pain and say, you're right, this is a hard thing to come to grips with and to understand why.

Why this would happen and understand what.

What God's up to or, why didn't God stop this?

And.

And being able to sit in the questions and in the messiness of it.

One of the things I talk about is, you know, I want to talk about a theology that heals, but there's also ways that theology can hurt.

And one of the ways that theology hurts is when we're so committed to our system, our.

Our set of beliefs about God and that being neat and tidy, that we set aside how those things, when we say them, are going to hit people.

And so it's situations like when somebody comes to us and says, you know, that they experienced abuse as a child, and we need to resolve that in ourselves.

And so we go to, well, everything happens for a reason.

Maybe I don't, you know, that I'm not condemning that theology.

But we have to be careful about what do they hear in that, and is this the right time to communicate that?

And so that's kind of where we're so committed to.

I've got to make sure I feel.

Feel resolved and no anxiety about this.

Yeah.

So then how are they experiencing this moment and how am I taking care of them?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, from what I've seen, it's also, like you said, being comfortable, or maybe not even comfortable, but being okay with saying, I don't.

I don't know the answer.

Yeah.

You know, because.

Because we may not ever know on this side of eternity the answer to that fully.

I mean, we can know who God is and, you know, all the different parts of it and all that, but that doesn't mean we have all the answers to why something happened to somebody.

Right.

And so.

But I think that is.

A lot of people regard that more, especially if there's somebody that's considering how they feel about their faith in God than to say, you know, this is what I'm still wrestling with.

Like, I've been on a walk with a girlfriend before where she's not really sure where she falls.

And, you know, she.

She's like, I think I believe in God, but I'm not really sure because I don't understand how children that are innocent can get hurt.

And I'm like, I totally get it, you know, but I'm like, I'm not trying to give her the answer.

I gave her some thoughts, but I told her, I understand why you're wrestling with that, because it is hard to live in a world where terrible things happen, you know, and so.

But I think she respected my conversation with her more, and she was more open to future conversations because I didn't try to tell her, oh, this is.

This is, you know, the thing.

Like, you know what I mean?

And so I think.

And I'm not a pastor, but I'm just saying I think.

Yeah.

And so I think sometimes it's just showing up and being honest.

Like, I don't have all the answers either, but I know why I believe, you know, who I follow and who I believe.

And I know this, but it doesn't mean I know everything.

Our desire to give those quick answers, the unintentional consequence of that can be the feeling of, you're not listening to me.

It can feel like the fact that you can resolve this so quickly feels like you don't fully understand, like, why this is a challenge for me, or I just feel shut down.

And so you're right, it does prevent future conversations.

You may feel good that you offered an answer, but they may never talk to you about it again because they felt like there wasn't a real dialogue going on.

And so, yeah, I had similar conversations.

And my desire in those moments is how do I be a good journeying partner in this?

Because you're right, these things are going to be resolved overnight.

And I think one of the things that's happened as a result of that is when people are wrestling with these things, they feel like they are shut down by having these conversations with fellow Christians.

And so they kind of have to go outside of the church to wrestle with these things, when in reality, like the church is where they should be wrestling and we need to create environments where it's okay to wrestle.

And so I think you're onto something.

That's exactly right.

Yeah.

And actually that did bring up.

I know you do talk in the book about, you know, we sort of go through these different stages of our faith.

And you know, one of the ones that I think some people struggle with and even sometimes pastors is, or with their, with their denomination is like when we get to.

I don't know if it's a third phase.

I don't remember which one it was, but it's basically like, I know you say hit a wall or maybe the other book says that, but it's where we start.

I don't know if the words questioning, but we start coming to a different place.

And I think you even explained it could be like a deconstruction.

But so what would you just share with us since we just talked about what we just talked about, you know,.

So kind of what I talk about in there is.

There was a book called the Critical Journey, and it lays out sort of stages of faith, not universal, but common things that we see and kind of give the overview of that.

The first stage is coming to a life changing awareness of God, whatever that looks like there's some kind of conversion, some kind of awareness of, oh my goodness, I understand who this God is and what it means.

For me, that leads to a second stage where you just want to learn everything about God that you can.

I mean, you're ravenous.

You are reading everything you can, you're listening to every sermon you can, every podcast.

You're just ravenously learning.

And then that leads to a third stage that is sort of this.

It becomes more external as now I want to serve.

I want to serve in my church.

I want to serve other people.

I Want to serve in a nonprofit.

I want to serve in all of these ways.

But somewhere along the way there is this kind of hitting the wall.

And the way that the author talks about this is that there's some event that happens, some season of life that we enter, whether it's the loss of a loved one, the loss of a job, some prolonged chronic illness, something that happens that is disorienting to us about God and how God operates.

Suddenly we're like, okay, God, I thought, like, if I just prayed you would take this thing away, or that if I was faithful, then this, these things would work out.

And suddenly the, the way that God worked in our mind isn't working.

And we respond to that in a lot of ways.

Like you said, for some of us it's kind of a deconstruction.

We begin to realize, okay, the faith that I was handed doesn't exactly work.

So I got to go back and work through some of this.

For some of us, it does lead to just all out kind of rebellion against God, and I'm going to go do this my own way.

For some of us, it's sin and we kind of feel trapped by something.

But I think in some instances, God also will bring us to the wall.

God will bring us to these moments because our understanding of God needs to grow.

I think the best way that I know to think of this is we experience God early in our faith in a certain way.

And so rather than allowing God to be this living, dynamic God, we cast God into this statue and say, this is how God always has to be.

And so God's like, no, I'm dynamic.

I need you to understand that I am living and active.

And so he needs to break out of that statue.

And sometimes that's difficult and disorienting for us.

The problem is when we go to people and we judge their whole spirituality on this one season of their life and we say, well, they lost their faith, you know, and it's like, well, exactly.

It just may be kind of going through a transformation.

So how do we come alongside of them versus just judge them?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I love that.

And I mean, having three sons, my sons are all over the place with their, their view of God right now and their practices and all that.

And so, you know, I'm walking through that season, you know, where they're in different places of that and, you know, but they're, they're adults now, and so I have to let them.

And I just, you know, I.

On a very rare occasion, you know, Add something or, you know, whatever.

You know, just try to encourage them.

And of course, lots of prayers right over that.

But.

But my point is, is it's like you said, I. I try to remember that they were all on our own faith journeys, too.

And you can't force someone to be where they're not.

And so, you know, I definitely live that a little bit now, too.

What about one of the things that you share in the book?

But when we are healed from something, God wants to use it.

He wants us to use it to heal others.

So what would you share with us about that?

You know, so I mentioned earlier kind of the idea of, you know, everything happens for a reason.

And in a previous book that I wrote, I kind of talked about how, like, I understand the instinct for that, but I also, like, one of the challenges that I have with it is I think it actually gives a less beautiful vision of redemption.

What I mean by that is, I think one way to narrate it is if I pushed you off of a boat, but then I jumped in and saved you, and I said, hey, I just saved you.

You'd be like, yeah, but you also kind of threw me in.

So, you know, and kind of what I communicated in that is, I think when we understand how expansive the effects of sin are, we understand that there are things that happen to us because we live in a broken world.

They're not always because God just wanted things to happen or that he needed this to happen in order for him to do that.

And so the example I give is, you know, with my childhood and my parents ended up being divorced, I don't think God wanted that to happen.

I don't think God desired that or orchestrated that.

I think the beautiful power of redemption was God being able to say, those things happen in a broken world.

And there are things that happen because of sin and our unwillingness to confront sin in our own lives.

But the story's not over.

And a part of God redeeming my experience with my parents and their divorce was me taking that and saying, okay, because I went through that.

I can now go to people in my church who have been through that and say, I. I get it.

I've been there.

Let's talk about it.

I understand.

And.

And I have been through that, because nobody knows what it's like to be through a divorce, like a kid who's been through a divorce, you know?

And so that's kind of the picture I want to paint is, is the ways that God redeems the pain in our stories.

By using those to help us walk through that with others when they're going through it.

And so all of it is God working to redeem those broken things.

So good.

And it's so important.

I mean, so many people that I've talked to, interviewed over the years, I meant some are pastors, lots of authors, but some are just people that went through something really tough.

And I'm not saying right away, at some point in their life that they said, this makes me feel better by sharing my story.

My.

The hard thing I had to go through, the loss I had.

And I feel so much purpose now, even though of course I don't want the thing to happen by walking alongside other people that are going through this because I'm further along than them.

And so I think, you know, I think it's such a beautiful way that God weaves us together, you know, is.

Is through these things, even though we don't want the thing to happen, of course.

But you know what I mean?

And that is the, the.

The.

How common that is, I think, is just a beautiful picture of how God doesn't waste those things.

It's not that he wanted them to happen or caused them to happen, but he also doesn't want them to be wasted, doesn't want that pain to be wasted.

And I think a lot of us, a part of my journey, too, is I think we feel like, well, why do I have to do the work?

Somebody else did this to me.

Why do I have to do the work?

And I understand that.

But the truth is it only punishes ourselves to stay in that place.

We think we're punishing them, but it really ends up a lot of times just punishing us.

When we can take that, we can begin to do the healing and then begin to feel the purpose of, like, I hate that I went through this, but I know others are going to go through this or have.

How do I help them use my pain to help them?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, and even just one other point on that I have shared sometimes on the podcast.

I mean, not too much, obviously, because it's not my.

My story, but I walk through the story.

One of my sons struggled in college with depression and suicidal thoughts, and thank God it didn't go past that.

But the point is, especially in private conversations on occasion, not in front of him, but I would share with other moms where their kids weren't going through it yet, but it was because I was like, I would want someone to know some of the things that I've learned through this Or I've had a conversation with another mom her daughter was going through.

Not that, but she was younger and something had happened to her.

So we both shared sort of what we walked through and then what we had to do to try to.

To help our kids.

But once again, it's more because instead of hiding it, like, oh, this is.

I'm embarrassed by this, or whatever, it's that it might help someone else have a conversation with their child or their young adult, you know, and, you know, anyway.

So, yeah, sometimes it's because we're like, you know what?

We don't want to hide the things that we go through.

And even though it wasn't my own thing.

Well, it was my thing that we went through because I think the amount of anxiety that I felt for years, every single day.

Right.

Like, is your child going to be okay?

But still.

But I only share that to say sometimes you're still walking through the thing and you're sharing it because you think it might help someone else.

Right.

Well, and you.

I'm sure you learned through that journey of that that I imagine at some point you wrestle with, like, did I do something wrong?

Sure, yeah.

Yeah.

You know, and.

And to be able to say to somebody else, look, I imagine right now you're feeling like maybe you did something wrong.

I just want you to know, like, in my journey through that, I learned, like, mental health is a very real thing that people struggle with, and it's not because you failed as a parent or, you know, that is like.

Like calming, healing, comforting thing to be able to speak over somebody who's wrestling with that in a moment.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, as we wrap up, let me ask you this.

Is there something that we didn't talk about?

Whether it's in the book or, like you said, one of the series, sermon series you're doing right now that you just want to.

You feel like you want to share with us right now.

Yeah.

You know, one of the things that I really just wanted to capture in this book, really, is that I think we live in a world where sharing our faith with others feels really scary.

It feels like it comes off really judgmental and not wanting to, like, hurt relationships with people because we bring up faith.

And.

And I think some of that is rooted in the fact that we've been taught to think about how do we lead somebody to faith by helping them understand their sinners.

Right.

And so we end up feeling like I just come off as super judgmental.

But what part of what I want to do with this book is to be able to say, I think one of the things that doesn't take convincing people of as an entry point to these conversations is our pain.

We all have pain.

We all need some kind of healing.

And so for us to beginning that place of like, hey, we, let's share our pain, let's talk about our pain.

Because that actually becomes a doorway to conversations about healing and about God and about some of these deeper conversations.

And so my encouragement to people is, yes, I want us to understand how God is a God of healing, but I also want us to understand that when this comes to sharing in a broken world, this actually can be a doorway to conversations around faith and coming to faith as well.

So whatever encouragement that can be, I just want to put that out there.

No, I love that.

Okay, so last question or so for you is I just normally ask my guests at the end, is there anything right now as you're, you know, just releasing your second book or just in life that is just fueling you right now?

So it can be faith related, it can just be fun, it can be whatever you want to share.

You know, it's, it's funny, I was thinking about that question and I had the thing that came to mind, which doesn't sound like something that would fuel you, but I feel like with it, with life right now, you know, having three kids, being a pastor, all the things of life, life, there's so much that feels frantic, that honestly, the things that's giving me life right now are the moments of silence that I can find where I can just let it, you know, be still.

My, my thoughts get to quiet down.

I did a sabbatical kind of a month, just kind of of, of time away from work earlier this year.

And the thing that I wanted to do the most was just sit in my chair, drink my coffee and be still, you know, and that, that gives me peace.

It's free, it's life giving.

So that's what's fueling me right now to whatever degree that makes sense.

Yeah, no, I love it.

Well, every morning I go outside normally with my coffee, you know, to get morning sun.

But also it's just that quiet time.

And so I absolutely get it.

I mean, for me, that's, you know, it's pretty much a thing that I do every day, you know, even if it's raining.

Luckily, we do have a covered porch, so I can even go out there.

So I'm with you.

To me, that brings me joy, right?

Absolutely.

Settling.

So wonderful.

I love it.

Okay, so can you share with Us, like, where can people find out about your book and just more about your church if they happen to be in your area ever, that kind of thing.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So my website is ikemiller.com lots of information about the books there.

The books are available on Amazon.

And wherever you buy books, you can find me on Instagram at ikefmiller.

And we are, we lead Bright City Church in the Raleigh, Durham area of North Carolina.

And our website is brightcitychurch.com love to have you come visit.

Well, thank you for, for just writing the book for the heart that you have for people and for the church, but just sharing the message that I think more of us need to be sharing, which is that God is, you know, he is a God who heals.

And he's a God that wants full healing for us.

And so, and I think how hopeful is that message?

You know, in the last thing I'll say is in the book, you do say something about God.

I think you say, and you can correct me, but God is a God that wants us to have life now, not just everlasting life.

And so I think sometimes we miss that message, too, as a Christian, when we're talking to people, that it's in his presence that today we get to live this life full of the fruit of the spirit, you know.

And so that's the last thing I think I would just wrap up with is I think sometimes we forget that God's not only worried about, you know, Salvation Attorney, but he's worried about how are we showing up today.

Right.

And do we have that relationship with him and with others and with ourselves?

Exactly.

Right.

That's Kristen, thank you so much for having me on.

It's been a wonderful conversation.

I hope it's a gift to your folks, that great thing.

Yep.

Thanks so much for joining me.

Super.

Appreciate it.

As I wrap up today's episode, I just want to share a few scriptures with you that speak to healing in the power of God.

The first One is Matthew 9:35.

It says Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness.

And then there's Matthew 10:1, which says Jesus called his 12 disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

It says, My son, pay attention to what I say.

Turn your ear to my words.

Do not let them out of your sight.

Keep them within your heart, for they are life to those who find them, and health to one's whole body.

It says, Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours.

He rescued them from the grave.

And the last one I'll share right now is James 5:15.

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well.

The Lord will raise them up.

If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

So that is the thing.

Our faith and our God isn't just looking to show us there's everlasting life with him and that he offers us salvation and that he, in that Christ died for our sins.

It's that he also wants us well.

He wants us fully and completely healed.

Because that's how we show up.

One, the gift of his healing.

But then two, we show up in the world one, to help other people, but two, then we can actually do even more work that he has us here to do, right?

To love and to serve others and to point other people to Him.

So until next time, I hope you have a great week.

If you enjoyed today's episode, if you could leave a rating review on Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts, it helps the show get discovered by more people so that we can continue to uplift and encourage people in their faith journey as well as all of the other parts of their lives.